Re: Pooled Influence Battles

[UninvitedGuest]

Pooled Influences Ex:
If Aaron has Church x 3 (York) and Church x 5 (Scarsborough), and Benji has Church x 2 (Scarsborough), then:
Aaron can Combine to give Benji +2.5 actions in Scarsborough; Benji can Combine to give Aaron +1 action in Scarsborough; Aaron can Combine to give Benji +1.5 actions in York; Benji cannot Combine to give Aaron actions in York. Sufficient Fame (4, I think) would let Benji Combine in York.

In the Scarborough examples, the resulting actions could hit anywhere in the Southern half of Scarborough County, in a specific municipality (one of the towns, villages, the Fair or the City of Scarborough itself). Fame 3 would let it hit the Northern half of Scarborough County, including within Whitby, in addition to allowing it to ignore any hindrances such as Block.

In the York examples, the pooled Influence could hit anywhere in Yorkshire County. in a specific municipality (one of the towns, villages, or the City of York itself).

Some Influences' Use Actions specifically ignore the range limitations we are discussing. Some Influences can cross Influence Category lines. Some can cover wide swaths of territory per their descriptions, alone. Much of Transportation works on long ranges automatically, no Fame needed. It still needs to be located in the right City to interact though, which can present interesting issues; You can stop locals from Smuggling with Impunity, but foreigners won't listen to your Block, for instance. Like a real world smuggler, you would have more control over your routes if you controlled personnel (Influence) on both sides of your smuggling routes, plus you would have people in place to trace, follow and defeat interlopers.

Does that help?

[UninvitedGuest]

Fame only applies to Contacts, Influence and Resources. Contacts are totally local without Fame. Resources' solid assets are local without Fame, liquid assets can be spent anywhere. Allies turned into Combine actions could be extended with Fame, otherwise they're incompatible and local. Conscripts and Military Force are pulled from a specific location...but yes, you could move those bodies wherever you wanted. Does that help?

[Simon Molendinarius]

I am the Prince.  This is my edict.

[Simon Molendinarius]

And yes I am pretty sure I can and will enforce it.

Regardless, all this does is force you to throw away a few points on network before you can effectively use influences.  Is there some reason this rule would benefit the game?  From what I can see it would serve only to dilute our ability to interact with plot and reduce the possibility of PvP interaction.  Maybe I am just no seeing the positive side of this.  Can you give us some insight into your motivations for this change?

All that being said I think the rules as they stand need changing, I just am not sure I see how to play with this system being proposed.

Final note, there are more than 8 cities.  There are 20 districts and my character has used influence in well over half of them thus far.

[Sigfried Le Danois]

So these new rules are completely removing the F&F pooling backgrounds for Influences and replacing them entirely with the combine action?

because as it stands, the rules in F&F allow you to pool influences, and they would directly stack. Even assuming you can only pool influences that are int he same "base of operations" Aaron and Benji should get a 5+2 for a total of a level 7 church that they share. This is by the book rules.
The combine action would allow them to then join with someone else, with out having to go through the ordeal of pooling an influence and then separating that influence peacefully, thus allowing short term cooperation.

These two rules should be complimentary, NOT mutually exclusive.

Also, i agree with Simon. Even if that princely edict didn't exist, there is very little incentive for me to base my influences in York, since I need the influences to protect my domain, and the place where I do most of my business (since one night a month in York does not equal the rest of the month).
So as Simon said, this will just mean I buy a couple points of fame, or network as a work around for the influences, simply making it an xp sink instead of really improving the game.

[Guest]

May I suggest that perhaps we could find a compromise between the two?

As an example in need of edit: "influences and Backgrounds must be based in a specific City in Yorkshire. Within that city they function as normal. Outside of that city, however, they are less effective. Each single action using any background or Influence outside of its base city (or the owner's network) costs 2 actions."

Or something to that effect. Maybe just Influences and keep Backgrounds as is. This would help us represent the relatively interconnected nature of our game area.

[Simon Molendinarius]

I still would like to know what positive change the STs are hoping for with this alteration.  Maybe by knowing the motivation we can better understand their intentions for us and the game.

I don't care what rules are used so long as I can edit my sheet within reason to reflect the new paradigm.  Many of us have tailored our limited points to work with a system of pooled backgrounds that seems to no longer be in effect.  Without a restack this would render my influences useless for about 6 months until I could rebuild certain areas.

[UninvitedGuest]

I've re-read Pooling and Anchors from F&F, thank you for your patience.

You can deal with IC repercussions of any changes in an IC way. You can notify me OOC of any big problems fro portraying your character this creates, and we'll touch on the specifics before I go negotiate with the DbST and HST on it.

F&F Pooling works the same way it works by book. You still have an Anchor, you can still pool just about all your backgrounds attached to it, there's still that 10 point limit imposed by staff. DEpics clarifies that there is no way to add up separate Influences to perform Use actions above any one character's base Influence traits, so 5 characters who Pool their Political x 2 into ten Political traits still cannot enact major legislation. But they can go ahead and drop 10 trait Grow actions on any one of their Political scores to quickly get around that, just as F&F Pooling normally allows.

To actually answer an earlier Pooling question I confused for a Combine question, Pooled influence Endeavors that get interactions give a Touch on the Pool entity itself and not the individual Influences. A Trace on the Pool action reveals that it is a Pool, with information about the Pool given out per Trace (whether the total Pool of that Influence is higher, lower, or equal to the Tracing Influence, and the Identities of all members of the Pool but not their individual scores' in comparison to the Tracer). If a Pool is successfully attacked, the Pool drops by one level until either a character adds a previously uncounted level (automatic success when mentioned as part of your Influence report) or the Pool can Grow itself back. F&F says regaining lost Pooled traits takes half normal time, so that would mean you need Current Pool x 1.5 in Grow to repair the Pool by that method, and doesn't appear to cost XP.

The main cities covered by the game map are the ones where Influences can be based. Areas immediately around those cities are covered by that City. If someone's Church Influence is blood bonding all the pious shepherds 15 miles outside York City's walls, that's fine, it still counts as York for my purposes. You can address that IC however you want to as a Prince-Baron, whether you decide it's part of York and makes you angry or you decide you don't care.

The changes aren't meant to hinder anyone significantly. They are meant to give a clear line in the sand we can all follow without consulting unwritten "rules", to prevent rules drift that could lead to imbalances and to give consistency among our team when talking to players. They are also meant to make Influences the strategic resource they are described to be instead of just more different discipline dots, and to help you feel the power/isolation of this age roleplaying your medieval characters in their castles as opposed to the inescapable interconnection and powerlessness of modern times. I don't anticipate this making the game less fun or stopping cooperation or PvP. I do see this potentially catalyzing the socializing and scheming parts of the game as characters try to get power in the middle of the board by whatever means they can stomach. I hope I am correct, the ST team is backing this hope also, and we are going to give it a try.

If I failed to address any concerns, please let me know/ask again and I'll try again.

[Sigfried Le Danois]

Who in the pool of influence actually loses influence? Say for whatever reason after an attack but before it is rebuilt the pool breaks up peacefully. Who has lost the influence?

Us influence loss permanent? Do you lose the xp and to rebuild you need to spend more xp or is the ruling kable made that only on rare circumstances is xp lost still in effect?

Are the kingpin rules still in play. I.e. Only a limited number of people who can be at the higher levels of the influence (I guess in the area they are based). If so what are the limits.

If kingpin and no permanent loss rules are in play how do you ever best a kingpin and take over his spot short of removing them from play?

If kingpin rules are in play in such a way that the kingpin ate limited on only per city how does that interact with fame our network? Does 2 points off fame out whatever point our network allow you to completely surpass the kingpin rules because you ate based in one area but can use all your influences in another including places where someone else is kingpin?

[Sigfried Le Danois]

Couple typos in the final paragraph and I can't edit posts.

Are not ate
Fame or whatever points in your network...

Are instead of ate again

[Simon Molendinarius]

So you are saying you want us to feel the isolation of the era, but you don't anticipate this would stop cooperation or PvP? To me that seems like a contradiction. If we and our influences are isolated, we are by definition not cooperating or fighting.

Also, can you explain how these would become strategic resources? I am just not sure what you mean by that. Maybe give an example.

It also should be pointed out that the entire map of Yorkshire is only like 80 miles from side to side and 100 miles from north to south. A 15 mile radius around a city wall is huge. 15 miles around York, for example, would extend down to Tadcaster and Selby in the district of Selby, and up to Malton in the district of Ryedale. Not sure if that was your intent, but it should also be noted some Districts are so large that 15 miles would not cover the entire region.

[Valance]

How does pooling work with non influence backgrounds? If five players pool their resources 1, do they end up with resources 5?

[Sigfried Le Danois]

Valance, that is how things have operated up yo know and since they are not influences I don't see why it would have changed. The only limit is that it good to 10 then restarts.So if you have 3 people with resources 5 polling together then they have resources 10 and resources 5 which is slightly more then 3 resources 5 using the scale the sts have given.

[Simon Molendinarius]

Hopefully Allies will also be limited in the same way as influences, else nothing stops me from using allies to get high level influences.

[Giric]

In regards to allies see that they can only copy actions you have already done. So you can't have them do high level actions unless you can already do them.

[Simon Molendinarius]

I disagree with thqat ruling. The rules for allies per the book are listed as two separate categories.
First you can use them to follow up on something you started. It mentions tailing people, researching something, and building things. It does not speak of influences.
The second bullet point talks about getting a specialized ally, in which case you can get an ally with multiple levels of an ability or influence by spending multiple points in allies.

These two points are separate. They are different things that can be done with allies.

[Simon Molendinarius]

I should clarify, I disagree with the ruling but will happily follow it if it stands. If its a choice between super powerful allies and useless allies I would take useless any day for game balance reasons.

[Valance]

While I'd still like an ST response to my earlier question, What happens if your pooled influences are based in different sub-domains? For instance, Billy has 2 Politics in York and 6 in Hull. Both are pooled together. Can the pool preform actions in York and in Hull? Only in Hull? Can the pool be based in a sub-domain that none of the constituent parts are in, say Richmond?

[Guest]

Phil answered that a page ago, in an example.

[Valance]

No, he answered how combining them in DE worked. I'm not seeing anything on the previous page dealing with how multiple influences in the same category in different sub domains are pooled.

[UninvitedGuest]

I'll address these questions this evening. Someone important needs a Lemon Tart to brighten up his day so I need to do that first.

[Simon Molendinarius]

Also...
"Fame 3 would let it hit the Northern half of Scarborough County, including within Whitby, in addition to allowing it to ignore any hindrances such as Block."

Wait what? How does Fame stop Block from being effective?

[UninvitedGuest]

Found another mistake I made regarding Anchor. I’ll get this down eventually:
“…it takes only half the normal maturation time to restore those lost associated backgrounds.” It takes a full Pool traits x 3 to restore the Anchor Pool. It’s the non-Anchor Pooled backgrounds that get restored at x1.5.

Who in the pool of influence actually loses influence? Say for whatever reason after an attack but before it is rebuilt the pool breaks up peacefully. Who has lost the influence?

If the pool is restored to full power, no one. If the pool is at reduced power when someone pulls out their stake (or is killed/NPC’d out) then the person who pulls out their stake is the one that loses out. I say this because the only person who loses out in a non-peaceful pull out is that person, so it’s all I have to go on.

Us influence loss permanent? Do you lose the xp and to rebuild you need to spend more xp or is the ruling kable made that only on rare circumstances is xp lost still in effect?

Awkward. DEpics mentions in Grow and Attack that when you accrue enough Grow, your Influence automatically increases, implying it doesn’t even cost XP (Obviously we’re charging XP for Influences, I’m just looking at all the sources). In the F&F Anchor description, it mentions that there is a cost for Influences that were lost due swapping out the Anchor background because “there is no cost break”.
I’m personally inclined to not screw with anyone’s XP total. If Kable has said the same, we’re of like mind. I’d like to return XP from lost Backgrounds to your unspent XP, but that’s got to be discussed with the ST Team. If you or other players have suggestions, let us hear them.

Are the kingpin rules still in play. I.e. Only a limited number of people who can be at the higher levels of the influence (I guess in the area they are based). If so what are the limits.

I do not know the answer to that. I’ll definitely find out for you.

If kingpin and no permanent loss rules are in play how do you ever best a kingpin and take over his spot short of removing them from play?

Assuming both ifs are true, and I’m not sure if they are yet: It takes time to grow back lost Influences as any successful attack also revokes any banked growth. An up-and-comer who is not attacked can have enough traits banked to immediately buy up the newly freed spot.
It is technically possible to have an Influence that can never be successfully attacked, if one is sufficiently persistent and connected. Attacks can get up to x 20, but cannot beat a total (Influence + Defend) of x 20. With Pooling to x 10 and Defend x 10 from x 20 Combine, you can get that undefeatable x 20 defense total. Good luck keeping enough friends invested in getting that much Influence and doing nothing with it, but it is doable. On the other hand, getting enough friends together for a single month to squash the Kingpin should be much easier.

If kingpin rules are in play in such a way that the kingpin ate limited on only per city how does that interact with fame our network? Does 2 points off fame out whatever point our network allow you to completely surpass the kingpin rules because you ate based in one area but can use all your influences in another including places where someone else is kingpin?

Fame costs Traits per Endeavor. So yes you can bypass a Kingpin, but only a limited number of times.
Network represents people waiting for you in specific cities. If Kingpin is in play, then you can’t have people beyond the lowest available Cap, because they already work for someone else.

So you are saying you want us to feel the isolation of the era, but you don't anticipate this would stop cooperation or PvP? To me that seems like a contradiction. If we and our influences are isolated, we are by definition not cooperating or fighting.

We’ll see how it works out.

It also should be pointed out that the entire map of Yorkshire is only like 80 miles from side to side and 100 miles from north to south. A 15 mile radius around a city wall is huge. 15 miles around York, for example, would extend down to Tadcaster and Selby in the district of Selby, and up to Malton in the district of Ryedale. Not sure if that was your intent, but it should also be noted some Districts are so large that 15 miles would not cover the entire region.

It was meant to be an extreme example. I really don’t expect anyone to actually blood bond pious shepherds to avoid getting within 15 miles of the churches of York.

How does pooling work with non influence backgrounds? If five players pool their resources 1, do they end up with resources 5?

Yes. Your cooperation gives you the ability to haggle for better prices that results in more pocket change to split among your group, and to own one very nice property instead of several poor ones.

I disagree with thqat ruling. The rules for allies per the book are listed as two separate categories.
First you can use them to follow up on something you started. It mentions tailing people, researching something, and building things. It does not speak of influences.
The second bullet point talks about getting a specialized ally, in which case you can get an ally with multiple levels of an ability or influence by spending multiple points in allies.

These two points are separate. They are different things that can be done with allies.
I should clarify, I disagree with the ruling but will happily follow it if it stands. If its a choice between super powerful allies and useless allies I would take useless any day for game balance reasons.

DEpics and F&F don’t have have actual bullet points, but the contents of the first two bullet points from LotN do appear basically word for word in those books.
You’re saying that because a new paragraph is started, you don’t have to respect the limitations of the previous paragraph. You’re also saying that you have the choice between following up on an action you started with only a single level of ability, or doing an original task with no prerequisite work and with either one or with multiple levels of ability or influence. That doesn’t make sense. They clearly must both apply.
You also didn’t mention the third bullet point in LotN (the passage does not appear in the other two books) that lets your allies help you feed. This is sensible. You’re always feeding. So your allies are able to follow up on that for you anytime you want. Since the passage is missing from F&F/DEpics we aren’t using it this way, but it does back up my point nicely.
And thank you for agreeing to stand by the rulings, even if you ultimately disagree with my interpretation. We can always continue the discussion here or privately if you want to talk about it more.

While I'd still like an ST response to my earlier question, What happens if your pooled influences are based in different sub-domains? For instance, Billy has 2 Politics in York and 6 in Hull. Both are pooled together. Can the pool preform actions in York and in Hull? Only in Hull? Can the pool be based in a sub-domain that none of the constituent parts are in, say Richmond?

For my purposes, only cities marked on the Domain Map distributed by the ST Team will count as sources for Influences. If you consider a city important enough that it should House Influences and be important to the game setting, please notify your ST Team and ask them to discuss whether it should be added to the map.
Assuming we add a city in the County of Hull to the map, using your example, if Billy has Politics x 2 (York) and Politics x 6 (Hull) then they cannot be Pooled at all.
If, for Roleplaying purposes, Aaron houses his Occult x 5 (York) in Rawcliffe [a town within Yorkshire] and Bertrand houses his Occult x 4 (York) in the City of York, and they agree that this is them respecting each other’s territories, that’s fine by me. Their Influences can still Pool if they desire and have DEpics interactions regardless of how they handle it In Character.

Also...
"Fame 3 would let it hit the Northern half of Scarborough County, including within Whitby, in addition to allowing it to ignore any hindrances such as Block."

Wait what? How does Fame stop Block from being effective?

“Certainly, if you’ve got the right Influence, you can push thing around on an interstate or even national scale, but with Fame, you can make a few calls and get your Contacts, Influence or Resources exerted over a greater range without any impediment. This is not to say you must have Fame to get anything done, only that it may help. Your total Fame determines your maximum range for unimpeded use of your Contacts, Influence and Resources.
. . .
Fame x 1 = Local Scene
Fame x 2 = City
Fame x 3 = State
Fame x 4 = Adjoining States
Fame x 5 = Entire Country”
The meaning is repeated three times in a row, then reiterated in the chart. Nothing can Block a Fame action because if you expend Fame traits matching the intended range of your action, it becomes “Unimpeded/exerted…without any impediment.” That sentence in the middle of the two quotes above makes zero sense in that position if all the background did was extend range; it’s outright saying that influences used as they are written don’t even need Fame to work, but adding the Fame has a benefit.
The chart itself also tells us that Fame doesn’t just extend range. Why would you need to expend Fame to cause it to work in the context of a single local scene? Why would you need to expend Fame to cause it to work in the very City it is sourced in? The answer is, you don’t. It additionally makes Influences unBlockable. Cool, right?

[Sigfried Le Danois]

Fame was written in a book before block was written in another book. I think the interpretation that it works with out hindrance was not intended to apply to blocks. Simply to the hindrance of long distance.

[Guest]

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